Curse

Super Igor · Feb 19, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

So is it going to kill shit or stand there spamming [draw conditions]? wtf leave you heroes to remove conditions give this moar dommages and moar [save yourselves].

iVendetta · Feb 19, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

@vendetta, dervs aren't casters so i don't see why you need 6-8 energy regen.

You mentioned energy management. ;3

MegaVolti · Feb 21, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Here's some numbers for you.

14 scythe mastery
Kurzick Title Track rank 7
Asura Title Track rank 10

[Victorious Sweep] critical 60 ar foe [115] [86+29] damage
[Victorious sweep] ctitical 60 ar foe while enchanted with [Aura of holy might] [163] damage

Auto-attack critical 60 ar foe [86] damage
Auto-attack critical 60 ar foe hexed with [Asuran Scan] [150] damage
Auto-attack critical 60 ar foe hexed with [Asuran Scan] while enchanted with [Aura of Holy Might] [234] damage

That's 35 additional points of damage auto attack vs [victorious sweep] with [asuran scan] and a 71 point difference with [Asuran Scan]+[Aura of Holy Might].

I dunno about you but 71 points of damage is pretty substantial. This is just auto-attacking. The skills in the Wounding strike build posted earlier recharge quickly allowing for a two attack spike with deep wound possible every 4 seconds. If you get lucky you could possibly hit a foe for 498 damage and applied a deep wound.

Why do you always take the critical damage? It will rarely ever happen.
I could just as easily say:
Auto attack minimal damage: 9
Auto attack minimal damage with [[Asuran scan]: 13
Victorious sweep: 38 (= 9 + 29)
Obviously [[Victorious Sweep] is stronger then the Scan

Yes I know this calculation is wrong, but so is yours. Actually mine is a little closer to the truth then yours

Of cause, if you always assume a critical strike then the +% from [[asuran scan] will beat anything, but that's simply not the case in the game.

iVendetta · Feb 21, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

[[Asuran Scan] is not always useful considering you're not trying for single-target spikes in PvE.

Darkside · Feb 21, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Why do you always take the critical damage? It will rarely ever happen.
I could just as easily say:
Auto attack minimal damage: 9
Auto attack minimal damage with [[Asuran scan]: 13
Victorious sweep: 38 (= 9 + 29)
Obviously [[Victorious Sweep] is stronger then the Scan

Yes I know this calculation is wrong, but so is yours. Actually mine is a little closer to the truth then yours

Of cause, if you always assume a critical strike then the +% from [[asuran scan] will beat anything, but that's simply not the case in the game.

I find it funny that you waited over a month before coming up with your own numbers to try and prove your side of the argument.

Also my numbers are not "wrong" they are optimistic there is a difference.

If you're not convinced that's fine.

Quote:

Asuran Scan is not always useful considering you're not trying for single-target spikes in PvE.

You will always be hitting at least one target, hitting more then one target is just a bonus of using a scythe and if you can kill even one of those targets faster then I'm for that.

I find that in HM removing priority targets is key, annoying healers, or ele's that do crazy AoE thats where Asuran scan really shines.

MegaVolti · Feb 22, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I find it funny that you waited over a month before coming up with your own numbers to try and prove your side of the argument.

Also my numbers are not "wrong" they are optimistic there is a difference.

Yes I didn't bookmark this topic and forgot that I posted in it

So it took me a while to look into it again by accident. But that is completely irrelevant since I am still right, no matter how long it takes.

"Optimistic" is just plain wrong. Imaginary would be the right word. There is nothing even remotely realistic about your numbers.
For a real comparison you have to take average damage and not max damage. Average damage of a scythe 25. With high mastery the critical chance is only about 20%, which increases the average damage to about 30. That's nowhere near the 86 you claim. In fact the 86 is wrong, even if you could critical with every hit. Critical means max damage (which is 41) and 50% bonus damage, so you end up with about 60 for a critical and not 86.

Bottom line: Please stop inventing ridiculous numbers trying to prove your point. That's ridiculous.

Darkside · Feb 22, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Yes I didn't bookmark this topic and forgot that I posted in it

So it took me a while to look into it again by accident. But that is completely irrelevant since I am still right, no matter how long it takes.

"Optimistic" is just plain wrong. Imaginary would be the right word. There is nothing even remotely realistic about your numbers.
For a real comparison you have to take average damage and not max damage. Average damage of a scythe 25. With high mastery the critical chance is only about 20%, which increases the average damage to about 30. That's nowhere near the 86 you claim. In fact the 86 is wrong, even if you could critical with every hit. Critical means max damage (which is 41) and 50% bonus damage, so you end up with about 60 for a critical and not 86.

Bottom line: Please stop inventing ridiculous numbers trying to prove your point. That's ridiculous.

Damage Tests

Target Armor 60

Fiery Ornate Scythe
Fire Damage: 9-41
Damage: +15% (When health is above 50%)

When I used Conjure Flame my Fire Magic = 8 which is (+13 fire damage)
Asura Scan = 75% More Damage at rank 10 on the Asura Title Track
I am the Strongest! = +20 Damage at rank 10 on the Norn Title Track
Aura of Holy Might = 24% More damage at rank 4 on the Kurzick Title Track
Scythe Mastery = 14

Normal attack = [86] Critical
Normal attack + Conjure Fire = [99] Critical (86 + 13 = 99)
Normal attack + I am the Strongest = [106] Critical (86 + 20 = 106)
Normal attack + Aura of Holy Might = [130] Critical (86 + 44(52%) = 130)
Normal attack + Asura Scan = [150] Critical (86 + 64 = 150)

Normal attack + Conjure Fire + I am the Strongest = [119] Critical (86 + 13 + 20 = 119)
Normal attack + Conjure Fire + I am the Strongest + Asura Scan = [208] Critical (119 + 89{75%} = 208)

Normal attack + I am the Strongest + Aura of Holy Might = [150] Critical (86 + 20 + 44 = 150)

Normal attack + I am the Strongest + Aura of Holy Might + Asura Scan = [262] Critical (150 + 112{75%} = 262)

Sundering Damage Test

Here are the numbers I got with a Sundering Scythe
Slashing Damage: 9-41
Damage: +15% (When health is above 50%)

Normal attack = [105]
Normal attack + Conjure Fire = N/A
Normal attack + I am the Strongest = [125]
Normal attack + Aura of Holy Might = [160]
Normal attack + Asura Scan = [184]
Normal attack + I am the Strongest + Aura of Holy Might = [180]
Normal attack + I am the Strongest + Asura Scan = [186]
Normal attack + Aura of Holy Might + Asura Scan = [228]
Normal attack + I am the Strongest + Aura of Holy Might + Asura Scan = [315]

Highest amount of damage I did for a single attack

Radiant Scythe + I am the Strongest + Aura of Holy Might + Asura Scan = [397]

Go test for yourself those numbers are not fictitious.

MegaVolti · Feb 24, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Lol. You are funny

First, [[Conjure Flame] or any other conjure don't really do well with [[aura of holy might].
Second, as you have proven yourself by posting these numbers, your "test setup" is completely unrealistic and will about never happen in any even remotely real situation.
And still you assume criticals with every hit which isn't even remotely realistic. Hint: You can only bring 3 PvE skills, one of which has to be [[eternal aura] since we are talking about avatar builds here.

So yes, it's all fiction.

Darkside · Feb 24, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Lol. You are funny

First, [[Conjure Flame] or any other conjure don't really do well with [[aura of holy might].
Second, as you have proven yourself by posting these numbers, your "test setup" is completely unrealistic and will about never happen in any even remotely real situation.
And still you assume criticals with every hit which isn't even remotely realistic. Hint: You can only bring 3 PvE skills, one of which has to be [[eternal aura] since we are talking about avatar builds here.

So yes, it's all fiction.

Had you even bothered to look at my post you would notice that; Oh hey she never put Conjure flame and Aura of Holy Might together for the damage test. So your first great point is gone... great job. Don't bother joining a debate team definitely not your thing.

The point of my test was to show the highest possible damage and obviously unless you are a complete moron you can figure out on your own that you will not be getting a critical on every single attack, but that overall average attack damage will still be increased whether you get a critical attack or not.

As for your "hint" I was talking about a wounding strike build not an avatar build so again that wonderful "hint" of yours is full of stupid.

MegaVolti · Feb 28, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Had you even bothered to look at my post you would notice that; Oh hey she never put Conjure flame and Aura of Holy Might together for the damage test. So your first great point is gone... great job. Don't bother joining a debate team definitely not your thing.

The point of my test was to show the highest possible damage and obviously unless you are a complete moron you can figure out on your own that you will not be getting a critical on every single attack, but that overall average attack damage will still be increased whether you get a critical attack or not.

As for your "hint" I was talking about a wounding strike build not an avatar build so again that wonderful "hint" of yours is full of stupid.

The highest possible damage in one hit is completely and utterly irrelevant in our discussion.
You say: Auto attack + Asuran scan is better
I say: Victorious Sweep is better

You are just wrong. On average damage, meaning DPS, Victorious Sweep will do a lot more donus damage then Asuran Scan.
Yes, if you critical against an AL60 target then Asuran Scan wins. But we are talking about builds for "real" situations here and in HM you will neither find AL60 targets not will you get a critical strike very often (chances vs high lvel targets are considerably lower).

Your calculation is completely pointless.

Anwyn · Mar 03, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

When I Scythe in HM on my derv, I score crits all the time... 15 in Scythe ftw...

gunster · Mar 04, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Here's my solution:

Switch to war, run DS/SY! + BH

Sorry, just thought i'd lighten up the mood here :P

Lucian · Mar 04, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

...in HM you will neither find AL60 targets...

I thought normal monster AL was the same, you just don't do the same damage because of the increased difference in levels.

Quote:

Here's my solution:

Switch to war, run DS/SY! + BH

+ Steelfang Slash.

My solution... have both a Warrior and a Dervish. Swap to one when you feel bored with the other.

This thread has me thinking that my recently neglected Derv needs some love.

*runs off to try Melandru builds*

MegaVolti · Mar 05, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucian

I thought normal monster AL was the same, you just don't do the same damage because of the increased difference in levels.

Monsters have the normal armor plus something like 3 (I'm not 100% sure of the number, can anybody confirm this?) for every level above 20. Since lvl 26 to 28 foes are very common, armor levels are quite high in HM.
This of cause results in taking reduced damage because they a higher level. The important thing is that armor ignoring attacks will bypass it and deal full damage, no matter the enemy level (which is why armor ignoring stuff totally rocks in HM).

Jeydra · Mar 05, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

The highest possible damage in one hit is completely and utterly irrelevant in our discussion.
You say: Auto attack + Asuran scan is better
I say: Victorious Sweep is better

You are just wrong. On average damage, meaning DPS, Victorious Sweep will do a lot more donus damage then Asuran Scan.
Yes, if you critical against an AL60 target then Asuran Scan wins. But we are talking about builds for "real" situations here and in HM you will neither find AL60 targets not will you get a critical strike very often (chances vs high lvel targets are considerably lower).

Your calculation is completely pointless.

You did make this claim, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

"Optimistic" is just plain wrong. Imaginary would be the right word. There is nothing even remotely realistic about your numbers.
For a real comparison you have to take average damage and not max damage. Average damage of a scythe 25. With high mastery the critical chance is only about 20%, which increases the average damage to about 30. That's nowhere near the 86 you claim. In fact the 86 is wrong, even if you could critical with every hit. Critical means max damage (which is 41) and 50% bonus damage, so you end up with about 60 for a critical and not 86.

Therefore his calculation proves you wrong.

Lucian · Mar 06, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Monsters have the normal armor plus something like 3 (I'm not 100% sure of the number, can anybody confirm this?) for every level above 20. Since lvl 26 to 28 foes are very common, armor levels are quite high in HM.

I see. Thanks. That makes sense, I just never gave it much thought, I guess. The most HM I've done has been farming and vanquishing with Sabway/Discord necros, so I just never paid much attention to the effects of damage reduction. I figured lower damage was mostly from level difference.

As for the OP AoM build, I gave it a tryout. My Derv hasn't got Asura Scan yet, so I wasn't running that. But that's beside the point, I can see the concerns over energy because I felt like the build was a lot to handle with AoM, and the two 10e enchantments. I took a N/Mo with Patient Spirit and Dark Fury. I'd cast AoM just before aggro, target myself and click the hero's bar for Patient Spirit/Dark Fury/Patient Spirit to get some energy back for the fight, but then casting AoHM and Eternal Aura once into battle and it's a big energy drop again. It works well (really nice for the Norn area mandragors), but felt like it required too much micro management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

[Zealous Vow][Asuran Scan][Radiant Scythe][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Whirling Charge][Dwarven Stability][Aura of Holy Might]

and to the above poster... AoHM makes you deal holy damage... so no conjure flame or orders...

Now, that I found to be a fun build (even without Asuran Scan). After playing with mostly Scythe/Mysticism/Earth for most of my Derv's career, I've always wanted to try something from the Wind line. That fills the bill quite nicely. More energy than I knew what to do with and sustainable IAS as well.

MegaVolti · Mar 06, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aura_of_holy_might
See the anomaly: It is changed to holy damage. In other languages the description also says so.
Try going with an orders Necromancer and a [[Patient Spirit] Monk, that should solve all energy problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You did make this claim, you know.
Therefore his calculation proves you wrong.

My claim was that an additional attack skill (as opposed to auto attacking most of the time) is more efficient then bringing [[Asuran Scan] due to the fact that the attack skill will hit 3 enemies if positioned right while [[Asuran Scan] will only work on the main target. On top of that the scan doesn't do much for auto attacks since they do almost no damage in HM and 80% more of almost nothing is still almost nothing.
His calculation has nothing whatsoever to do with this. All he did is invent strange magical numbers.
No, his calculations don't prove me wrong. They can't because I simply am right.

Jeydra · Mar 06, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

"Optimistic" is just plain wrong. Imaginary would be the right word. There is nothing even remotely realistic about your numbers.
For a real comparison you have to take average damage and not max damage. Average damage of a scythe 25. With high mastery the critical chance is only about 20%, which increases the average damage to about 30. That's nowhere near the 86 you claim. In fact the 86 is wrong, even if you could critical with every hit. Critical means max damage (which is 41) and 50% bonus damage, so you end up with about 60 for a critical and not 86.

Don't disown what you have claimed. He proved you wrong, end of story. Should I point out too that you didn't mention HM armor? Furthermore, if you did have HM armor in mind, you would undoubtedly have pointed it out now ...

MegaVolti · Mar 08, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Don't disown what you have claimed. He proved you wrong, end of story. Should I point out too that you didn't mention HM armor? Furthermore, if you did have HM armor in mind, you would undoubtedly have pointed it out now ...

Reading comprehension ftw?
Did you really not understand a single word of this argument?

His calculation didn't prove me wrong, in fact it did prove me right since the only way Asuran Scan can beat an additional attack skill in the initial build is assuming you only hit one enemy all the time and you do a critical all the time against an AL 60 target - which is just silly.
And I did mention HM armor multiple times now. The whole topic is about efficient builds and it is painfully obvious that efficient builds are generally not only used against puppets on the isle of the nameless

Jeydra · Mar 08, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

You said it is impossible to critical for 86. He criticals for 86. Happy?

I bet you will rant and rave and protest that this is out of your point. Doesn't matter. You claimed it is impossible to critical for 86. You then claimed that 86 is sheer imagination. You even came up with your own calculation saying you should crit for 60+, not 86, and finally you proceeded to call Darkside's test 'fiction'. He then provided more numbers proving you critical for 86, making him right and you wrong. End of story. Darkside wins this argument. You can keep protesting if you want, but the way you botched up something so basic kind of ruins your credibility.